MRTS Interview Spotlight - More Than A Few Good Men - Shaun Dawson

Fatherhood gets stereotyped as ties, grills, and quick jokes, but the truth is a lot heavier and a lot more meaningful. We talk with Sean Dawson from the Raising Men podcast about why many dads feel unseen, why Father’s Day can hit a nerve, and why the cultural story about men often misses the depth of what good fathers actually do. 

From there, we get practical about raising boys and healthy masculinity. Sean breaks down a mistake parents make all the time: treating masculinity like a performance. Boys do not learn manhood from speeches; they learn it from what they watch. We dig into how modeling works, what quiet strength looks like, and why “tough guy” behavior is usually insecurity in disguise. If you care about parenting, fatherhood, or men’s mental health, this part will land hard. 

We also tackle the modern climate boys are growing up in, including the moment school and society start trying to mold a boy into something that may not fit him. Sean lays out the two toxic extremes boys hear today: masculinity is evil versus masculinity is being a jerk. The goal is not picking a side; it is managing the tension and building character through protection, self-control, humility, and accountability. 

To make it real, Sean shares why he chose to do the struggle in public, how male friendships often stay emotionally silent, and a simple “milk frother” story that turns into a lesson on owning mistakes without getting defensive. If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with a dad who needs it, and leave a review so more parents can find it.

Transcript

Welcome To The Men's Roundtable

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Welcome back to the Men's Roundtable Series Interview Spotlight. I'm your host, Mr. Yu. If you're watching this for the very first time, wherever you are, however you're listening, live on LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube. Thanks for making us part of your week. Definitely appreciate it. For you guys that are new to us, you might have heard the name before in a similar place. We have a men's roundtable series podcast every Thursday night, 7 p.m. EST. We created a safe space for men to talk about men's issues, validation, father wound, anything that has to do, all the narratives that have to do with men, manhood and fatherhood. We talk about it. So husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons, you're invited every Thursday night, 7 p.m. EST. This show is a one-on-one interview spotlight with men who are doing some powerful things in the world. Want to give us some praise and some pops for doing what they do. So our guest today, good buddy of mine, host of the Racing Man Podcast, Sean Dawson, is in studio with us. Sean, how are you, man? Good to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I'm doing fantastic. Never better. It is an honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Same here, bro. I appreciate the uh opportunity to do this with you, man. I've been watching your work on social media. I've been following you guys from a distance. I know we got a lot that we do on our side, uh, but it said the work seems to be uh enjoying together, if you will. So I'm excited to boost you guys wherever I can and watch your work and point people in your direction. So good to have you here finally. Let's have a chat, man. Can we do that?

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Let's do it, man. I uh that's that is the name of the game.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Absolutely.

Why Father's Day Feels Off

SPEAKER_01 2:09

So I want to get into a few things. Uh, we already know, you know, there's a lot of narratives about that out there about men. Around next month, around this time, I'm probably gonna have a slight attitude problem because Father Day for me isn't something that I see uh done in a in a way I think is respectful and honoring. I don't always see that. So I'm keeping my attitude right now. So hopefully when Father Day comes around, I'm not you know a grumpy old man.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

But I love that. I I I'm eager to hear more about your thoughts about that. I I have complicated feelings about Father's Day myself. Um, but it's generally a good thing. I I and so uh and so I'm I'm eager to hear more.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah, I talk about it probably too much on our shows, but but the short version of it is when Mother's Day comes around, you already have seen it. It's a full court press. You can't turn your TV on and watch one show without seeing Mother's Day stuff 10 times in one episode, a 60-minute episode. When Father's Day comes around, you see uh it'd be a lot more sparse. You see things like uh macaroni necklaces and and and sun visors and a really bad tie or a power tool. And I'm like, some kind of grill or utensil instrument. I'm like, okay, fathers are so much deeper than that. We have so many more layers to us. There's other things that we like too. So I deal with that stuff. It's my own little personal pet pee.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Yeah, it is a microcosm for kind of the attention to fathers in in our culture. You're exactly right about that.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Fathers do a lot of good things that you never hear about, yeah. So that's why shows like yours and ours, we're we're shining a light on what fathers are actually doing and the impact they're actually making. So let's get into our convo.

Masculinity Is Not A Performance

SPEAKER_01 3:59

You talk a lot about uh healthy masculinity for young men. I love to hear where you think the biggest mistakes are that fathers are making when they're trying to teach it.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah, um, man, that is that is a um a uh deceptively deep uh and incisive question. Um, but I would say that the most, you know, I think the biggest mistake people make when they think about masculinity is is they often think about masculinity as performance. That masculinity is about the the show of masculinity, that strength is about puffing out your chest and being the tough guy. And but and what's interesting about that is I also think we all know deep down that that's not true. When we have in our minds the idea of a true man, a real masculine person, it's not somebody who goes out puffing out his chest. It's not somebody who's making a performance about being strong or powerful or any of that stuff. It's the guy who's in the corner who doesn't have to say anything. You just feel it exuding from him. We all know that. And yet I think a lot of people fall victim to the need to have a performative display. And and that that actually goes to the next part of your question, which is well, what about you know how we're how we're demonstrating that, how we're teaching it to our boys, for example? And the fact is that the vast majority of the lessons that our boys get from us, they get from modeling, they get from watching us. They don't listen to what we say, they they watch what we do and they do the same thing. And and so, you know, if you're out there acting like a tough guy and puffing out your chest and getting in people's way and talking smack and doing all that, all the performative masculinity stuff, well then your boy's gonna take that and he's gonna think that that's what masculinity is. And the most important thing we can do is surround our our young men with models that they can emulate, models of healthy masculinity, and that's not it.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

No question. Great answer, sir. I want to get into your podcast word, but I got a couple more questions for you before we get there.

When School Exposes The Gap

SPEAKER_01 6:22

What would you say, Sean, is the moment that you realize that fathers need to have a different kind of conversation when it comes to raising boys? When did you figure out that you know what? The route that we're going, we hit we hit we hitting a uh dead end here. We need to change the uh the narrative, shift the conversation. When did you figure that out?

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah, around my time, my boy started going to school. Um he he started going to preschool and started, you know, being in a classroom with a lot of other kids. And I I ended up getting called to the school at least once a week, sometimes, sometimes multiple times in a day. And he got kicked out a lot. He I had a lot of conversations with the principal. The principal is an amazing guy. I I it was we were fortunate to have the principal that we had um during this time. But the bottom line was my boy, what I realized is that he's gonna have a tough time in our culture. He is not the the school and the culture and the rest of the society is trying to mold him into something that is not natural for him. And it's my job to figure out how you know to give him the capabilities to thrive in our culture, the way that it is. I can rail against it if I want to, I can complain about how you know it's not the way it ought to be. That's true, but I have to give him the skills to to thrive in the way that that our society is when he graduates into it. And and that means, frankly, that I can't go on autopilot. The the the way that I was brought up and is is not applicable to the modern world. Oh, yeah. And I'm gonna need to I'm gonna need to figure out something different than just doing the same thing that that my parents did.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, one size pit all for sure, man. Well, I mean, we raised three girls, so it's a little bit different. We got grandsons, but we don't have no daughter, we don't have sons.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Yeah, well, and girls, you know, girls come with their own challenges. It's it's they're they're and and they're really difficult challenges in their own right. It's not that's not to diminish what girls go through. I think uh one of the big pervasive issues in our culture is this kind of notion that in order for boys to thrive, that takes away from girls in some way, or in order for girls to thrive, you need to take away from boys in some way. And that's just I mean, that couldn't be the opposite is true. Our kids are coming from yeah, our kids need to thrive, and the more the girls thrive, the more the boys will thrive, and the more the boys will thrive, the more the girls will thrive. And anything that diminishes that is bad for everybody. Definitely.

Escaping Two Bad Masculinity Extremes

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Now you didn't go into detail about what uh I guess the kind of young man you're you're raising in your health, but what do you think parents are misunderstanding most about raising boys in today's climate?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

I I think I think there are two big mistakes that that people make, and it's emblematic of this kind of um dichotomy we have in our in our in the social discussions around uh around masculinity in general. And um and that that that dichotomy, I'll explain that first, which is that you know there's this sort of left coded message that comes down that is that masculinity is evil. It's bad. It's bad to be a man. And um, you know, our boys need to be more like girls. And um, or men have had their time, it's now our time, or that sort of thing. It's this uh fixed sum, fixed sum zero or zero sum mentality about you know masculinity versus femininity or what it is. And then there's this other side, which is a right-coded message about no, you know, everything that those people say is is evil is actually a virtue, and that masculinity is about being an asshole. And you should embrace your your, you know, just be a jerk. And that's what being a man is. And that's not true either. The fact is that there is a healthy vision of masculinity that we're losing sight of as a culture, and it involves um, it involves rites of passage, it involves, you know, choosing protection rather than persecution. It means it means protecting the weak, right? It it involves thinking, you know, you think things through, you you you hold the line against the the you know, the crowd that wants to do something stupid. You're able to say, no, no, no, the emperor has no clothes. That's what a man does, right? And um, and and you know, uh a man is humble and those sorts of things. And so I feel like the big mistake that a lot of parents make, to go back to your actual question, is is they they settle in one of those one of those extremes. And there's attention. And and this is, I mean, what this is the thing that I've absolutely the biggest lesson that I've learned in this entire project since I've been doing it, is everything is attention. Anytime someone comes in and says to you, X is true, and it's always true, that's a lie. You need to look for the opposite thing and then look for the tension, and then you need to manage that tension. And the fact is that um there are aspects of masculinity that can reasonably and rightfully be called toxic and they're bad, and you know, they need to be handled or addressed or suppressed in some cases. Um, but but there are very it is a very important thing for our culture that we have strong, powerful men and and and good, excellent men, and we all should recognize that. And and suppressing that is not the thing. And so there's a tension there.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Sound like a beautiful world to me. Uh I want to talk about your show, the raising men podcast. I think about I talked about this book and its author probably more times than I can even imagine because it's impact impacted me that much. Wild of the Heart by John Eldridge. That's the book right there. If you haven't read that or you haven't read that, I highly highly, I can't recommend if it's out of 10, I'm gonna say 15. There's there's no way you can not read this book and and the follow-up behind it, Fathers by God. So it's wild at heart and then followed by God. If you want to understand why men should not be pacified or kept safe as a child, and what it does to them emotionally and spiritually and psychologically, those two books pull back the curtain, brother. Fantastic. I'll say them again, Wild at Heart and Father by God, both by John Eldridge. Top of my mind. Uh, why did you start with Raising Man podcast and what changed in you as a dad after you started it?

Why The Raising Men Podcast Started

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah, there were two forces that really caused me, caused me to do it. And um the first I already talked about, which is just this realization that my boy is graduating into a world that is so different than the one I graduated into that that I need to I need to really get smart about how to make sure that he turns into a strong, capable, excellent man. The second thing is so that's that's how I decided to want to get informed about this. But that doesn't mean you have to start a podcast, right? It doesn't mean you have to go and do the struggle in public. And I uh around that same time I had a conversation. Well, around the time that I was that I was thinking about this, I had a conversation with one of my closest friends from uh from ninth grade. And I was in this guy's wedding. I was the best man in his wedding. Um I uh, you know, we I was there when he when well, not when he met his wife, because uh they had been childhood friends, but when they started dating, I I I dated her sister. Like we were really, really close.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

And uh they've been married for 20 years. And he calls me up one day and he goes, Oh, we got to talk about something. He goes, Oh, yeah. And I said, as long as as long as you're not about to tell me that you and your wife are getting divorced, uh, we're we're good. And he was just silenced. And um I was like, oh man. He goes, Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's pretty much what's going on. And I go, Well, we gotta fix this thing, and you know, what's going on? And and he started telling me about the last kind of the way that his marriage has been for the last 10 years. And it had gotten to a point that was irreconcilable, and the right thing to do was to figure out you know how to how to how to raise the kids in a in a in a in a in a in a household that was positive and move and forward moving, uh as opposed to where they were. And so they you know decided to do that. Um but what what struck me there was that I had no idea the last decade what he'd been going through. He didn't share it with me. And I felt betrayed. I felt like, dude, why why didn't you let me be your friend? Why didn't you share this with me? And then right after I thought that, I realized, wait a minute, I've got a bunch of crap I'm going through. And I've never shared it with him either. I'm not letting him be my friend. Oh wow. And like, what is wrong with us? My wife has you know 10 different people that she shares every detail of her life with. She's so close to all of her friends, and we don't do that. We men don't do that. We need to open up the dialogue, we need to recognize you know, uh, we need to be a little bit more vulnerable, a little bit in public. We need to be a little bit less performative, we need to be more acknowledging of the fact that we have internal lives that are not necessarily what we portray to the world, and um, and that's the reason I decided to do the struggle in public.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I love it, man. I love it, I love it. So I'm what I see, the raising men podcast is fantastic. I'm I'm assuming that men are definitely uh leaning into it and supporting you. I don't see why not.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

You know, I I get a I get an uh an unbelievable amount of, and I'll tell you, you know, I I I'll give you I'll give you something I really struggle with. When I uh when I was a young boy, I had some experiences that made me want to keep my cards close to the vests. I didn't, I don't wanna, I don't want to do things in public. I don't want to talk about stuff that I haven't done yet. I I don't want to share my plans because when I was a kid, a lot of those plans and a lot of you know just kind of the way that I grew up, those things got ridiculed and I felt shame of about wanting things. And it's just kind of the way that played out. And so for a long time I didn't tell anybody what I was doing. I didn't tell any of my friends. Um I didn't I didn't share until after the podcast went public. I I didn't feel comfortable sharing about it. And um and yet, and yet I decided to go do this whole journey in public. It's actually a way to kind of just shock myself out of that of that mentality because it's it's it's not healthy. It's not healthy. We should rejoice in each other's struggles. And I have people in my life that will rejoice in my struggles. And when I finally kind of opened up and started talking to people, I got not just from men and not just from fathers, but but from mothers as well, I got tremendous response. Everybody was so supportive. And so, oh my gosh, people need that. I'm so happy you're doing that. And it made me feel it made me feel stupid for not talking about it. And um, it's been it's been invigorating. I was really worried about finding guests, and you know, who's gonna want to come on on this little podcast? That has not been an issue. I was worried about finding audience, that has not been an issue. It has been a really rewarding experience for me. And the best part about it, it's an excuse to get together with guys like you and talk about really meaningful stuff and have a great conversation and get to the bottom of stuff that you know I wouldn't be able to figure this out by myself otherwise. And I just man, I'm so thankful for that for the for the opportunity to do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Same here, man. This is uh uh probably the most hate to say that because I I'm sympathetic. We've got four shows, and I want to make one sound like it's one thing. You can't have a favorite, you know, like a like a favorite child you want to say be like, That's my boy, that's my girl. But you don't want to say it out loud because you're gonna give them a complex. But this this uh this show in our round table, man, this is what's uh this is what butters and biscuits for me, man. This is what brings everything out. I'm like, yeah, this is it because I'm a man, husband, father, brother, and son. I've qualified all four of those areas, right? So I love what you're talking about. I love the testimony about how you're growing, man. I'm so happy for your legit, I'm legit happy for all your success. I'm like, yeah, it validates everything that we're trying to accomplish, man. So if we're close to the end of our shows, I want to try to not not uh ramble on too much, man. But I want to ask you a question and ask you to let folks know where they can find your work and your podcast and everything.

What An Excellent Man Looks Like

SPEAKER_01 20:25

So answer this for me first. To raise a good man in real life, not in theory. Yeah, what does that look like? And after that, let folks know where they can find you and your work, John. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Yeah, well, I mean, again, like think back to what think back to what you think about when you think of a when you when you think of a good man, when you think of an excellent man, not just good, right? What is excellence in in being a man? We have, we actually know, we have this atavistic understanding of what that means. It's some of it is kind of superficial, right? You know, um it's you know, somebody who's strong, right? Physically strong, capable of, you know, lifting heavy boxes and and you know, in in in reasonable shape, right? Who controls their their um uh their instincts, right? You know, their their their urges, they are they are in control of those things, right? But I mean, you just like think about what what that means. What does it mean to be an excellent man for yourself? What does that mean? And you know, it's uh we all if you and I wrote down a bunch of things in the list, we're gonna overlap about 80% of them. They're gonna we're gonna be things like, like I said, protecting the weak, being temperate when temperance is called for, thinking things through, holding the line, acknowledging mistakes, exhibiting humility, um, you know, being able, recognizing when you fail at those things. This is something that I think a lot of men today. Part of the reason that they're boys, they're not really men. And um, you know, you know, and actually that's that's a that's a pretty stark way of putting it because I think everybody has ways in which they exhibit masculinity in healthy ways and and extents to which they're men and extents to which they're boys. I certainly do. Um, but one of the big shortcomings that I think a lot of guys have, myself included, is that we're not willing to acknowledge that we've that we're failing at at things. We get defensive. We you know, um, I had a situation just two days ago. My wife um called me on something. She she uh um I think the specific thing was that it it is my job to um she has this she has this milk foamer for her coffee and she hates cleaning it. And I don't I like I like hand washing dishes. I mean, I don't love it, but I'm happy to do it. For her, it's just an unbelievable chore. And so this is something I do in our household is I'm the guy that hand washes the dishes, right? And she came to me at one point in time and said, you know, every morning I get up and I want my coffee and my milk frother is dirty and it's sitting in the hand washed basket and it's not clean. And it would really mean a lot to me if you made it your mission to make sure that I had a clean milk frother every morning so I didn't have to do this thing that I hate doing in order to get my coffee, which is like my morning pleasure. Like, and by the way, how often do you actually get the opportunity to see like that's that is something that costs me nothing, like very little. I can I can wash this thing in in 30 seconds, and I don't mind doing it, and it's part of you know what I'm doing anyway. I'm next to the sink in a lot of cases and for a lot of reasons, and yet it brings her tremendous value. And now I'm aware of it. So I was like, you know what? I would love to be able to do that for you. I will take care of it. And then about a week later, she says I happen to notice. Yeah, I happen to notice that uh you haven't really been washing my mug rather. And my instinct right then was to get defense. Well, you know, I've been busy and this is but and I had all these excuses for why I didn't do it, but I did. And that was this that was one of those moments you can you can respond like a man or you can react like a child. And my urge, my instinct was to react like a child, and yet, you know, and then I had to stop myself. I had to to insert my conscious mind, I call it the the Sherlock Holmes brain as opposed to the Conan the Barbarian brain. I had to insert my conscious mind into that into that moment and go, you know what, you're 100% right. And I apologize. And then I'll set and then and then I'll set up a mechanism to make sure that I do it. And so now, if I ever see that freaking thing on the hand washer, I feel like I gotta clean this right now. It is, it is, it's, but you know, I mean, so that's what I would call a healthy, you know, that's those are some of the components of a healthy vision of masculinity. And um and yeah, I mean, I think that I think that most, I think we all have it. I think we all have it in ourselves. We all know what that vision is. And we might even hide it from ourselves because we recognize that we're not living up to it. And it's really, really hard to look yourself in the mirror and recognize the fact that you're not living up to your values. And so, you know, that's that's the prime, that's the fountain head of all of it. Just, you know, be candid with yourself.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

This might be where off the rails looks like. I love it though, man. I love it. I know your wife is like happy that you uh cleaning the fraca, your awesome husband, brother.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Well, and but you know, she's got plenty of other things to be unhappy about. Don't I it's uh that doesn't make me the perfect husband, but uh that's not like a unmailing.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

I'm not sure I'm not sure I said perfect, but I should do a good husband. I don't think I have picture on you, but let's go do what they can find you, Sean. Good to see you, man. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah, likewise,

Where To Find Sean Dawson

SPEAKER_02 26:32

yeah. So uh my website is called raising.men, and uh I'm at the Raising Men podcast. You can find us on all the socials, and uh yeah, and uh you know, podcast at raising.men is my email address, and I love to hear from people.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Thank you so much, sir. This is a fantastic podcast and a great podcaster. He's a great father too, man, despite what you're hearing right now. Sean Dawson, thanks again for making us part of your day, brother, and being on our show, man. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

It's a pleasure, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Thank you. Same man. Let's work together in the future if we can, man. But for you guys watching, thanks for making us part of your week. You can find us on all listing platforms, social media, across the board. Follow us, subscribe, where you can help us put out more amazing content like this kind of show with Sean Dawson. Now, Sean, I'm Mr. U. Having a great day right here. Hope you are too. Thanks for watching and listening.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Step in star. Real men, real faith where the truth can lie. Voices at the table where the stories get chairs. Welcome to the men's round table, pull up a chair.